APV vs Mechanical (an introspective)

This isn't a post to discuss what each of us likes better, it's a post designed to explain the simplest difference between an APV and a straight Mechanical solution. As always, if you're not smokin' analogs it doesn't matter what you spend, or what you buy, if it works for you, then Amen!

Aside from the people who've turned Vaping into a hobby and those who like "variety", there are those of us who just want to Vape too.

If all you're concerned about is:

a) Consistent Good Flavor
b) Consistent Good Vapor Production
c) Consistent Good Battery Life

Then you're probably on the same boat as me...

Getting a and b are easy with a Mechanical mod, but here's the rub... From a purely Electronics perspective, as long as you're not overdriving your 3.7V battery above 3.7V, (under normal circumstances) an APV will ALWAYS produce BETTER battery life.

I = V / R (Current = Voltage Divided by Resistance)

Without spending too much time doing math, I think I can explain WHY quite easily...

Mechanical Mod
If you're using a Mechanical mod (without kickers), all that's between you and Vaping is your battery (V) and your coil (R). The duration of your battery (in this scenario) is how much CURRENT you are drawing. So if you have a 3.7V battery with a 2.28Ω coil, you're gonna draw 1.62Amps.

3.7V / 2.28Ω = 1.62Amps

VV/VW Advanced Personal Vaporizer (APV)
If you're using an APV (with Variable Voltage and/or Vairable Wattage), you've thrown the simplicity out of the equation. Instead of just doing simple, basic math (with your battery and resistive load) you now have a computer and another component doing some rather interesting work for you.

VV/VW APV's DO NOT USE YOUR RESISTOR as the LOAD!
VV/VW APV's DO NOT connect directly to your coil!
VV/VW APV's DO connect your battery to a CAPACITIVE (inductive) LOAD instead.

What does this mean in English? It means that no matter what size coil you make, you don't control the current draw by the size of your coil. There's no simple way to explain this, but a Capacitors function is to either hold a charge (or in our case) to build one up and release it. Without getting into more technical things like "duty cycle" and "PWM", the VV/VW APV's output current is LOWER than a Mechanical mod, because the resistor isn't being used as the actual load in the equation. Also, the output Voltage of a VV/VW APV is not VDC, it's V[SUB]rms[/SUB] (Volts Root Mean Square) or V[SUB]avg[/SUB] (Volts Average). Both of which output a "not quite" DC waveform. But again, I'm trying to keep this from getting complicated.

So when someone like me (who uses a VV/VW APV) says that he's running 3.0V with a 1.5Ω coil... When that APV throws it's PWM (pulse width modulation) mojo at my Coil, I'm getting a good, fast & warm Vapor that's making some pretty nice clouds for me. AND my battery is lasting longer, because I'm drawing less current.

And by the way, if you're one of those people who's using a coil with 11 wraps and you have no trouble getting your coil hot, it's because you're using a mechanical mod and your coil will PULL as much current as it needs to. An APV can't do that.

So Mechanical's may be prettier and they can give you higher current, but APV's will allow your batteries to last longer because that same 2.28Ω coil IS NOT drawing 1.62Amps, it's drawing less.

How can I show you that it's less? Well, that gets complicated too, but maybe a hint:

I sat here for a few minutes, but without an Oscilloscope, I can't really think of a way.

But here are the formulas going on behind the scenes for V[SUB]rms[/SUB] and V[SUB]avg[/SUB] in case you're interested:




Like I said, I wanted to keep it simple and it's hard, but I hope I helped you understand it even a little bit better...

PS: In my previous life I spent 30 years working in the field of Electronics. So...
PPS: I've made no attempt at completeness, if I had done so, both of our heads would have exploded!
PPPS: Think it's too complicated? It is. Just do whatever makes you happy!

 

well hell !!

ya didn't giva an option for a strictly VV device,only a Evic, garbage in my book

I understand about half of what you are trying to say,not that any of it really matters to me

i run VV and set it to give me what i want from my delivery device,plain and simple


warning,,what ever you do don't post this over at that other place !! fanbois will be all over a post like this because it doesn't fit into their "VW is superior" world

 

The interesting thing [MENTION=9077]exodus[/MENTION], is that THE IDEA of VW really is superior, but in practice, it's still a bit deceptive.

Think of this:

Let's say I have a VAMO (which I do)
Let's say I have a 1.5Ω coil (which I do)
Now, let's say I'm in VW mode and set it to 3 watts.

NOW, let's talk about the VAMO for a sec...

The VAMO can provide Voltages between 3.0V - 6.0V, using PWM to provide either V[SUB]RMS[/SUB] or V[SUB]AVG[/SUB].

If I set a 1.5Ω coil to do 3W, I do some quick math and I come up with 2.12132V.
That's almost a VOLT less than what the VAMO is capable of providing...

So like I said, in theory VW would be awesome, because then it doesn't matter what kind of coil you make, because you can regulate the POWER. But right now, there aren't any devices that can do VW properly. I've tested most of them. Their claims don't hold water. YET!

That's the beauty of this, Mechanicals have their strong points and APV's have theirs.
Which is better? Well, it depends on what your goal is...

 

There is a whole lot wrong with your post there, but I'll just start here...

The equation you quote for V[SUB]rms[/SUB] is for the V[SUB]rms[/SUB] of a sine wave (or an AC square wave). Since we do not use AC in vaping the correct equation would be

V[SUB]rms[/SUB] = V[SUB]peak[/SUB] * sqrt(duty cycle)​

for V[SUB]rms[/SUB] of a pulse train.


Then we could move on to the efficiency losses in any regulation circuit, and the physics of a pulsed load vs. a constant load on a chemical battery cell... but I won't.

Your efforts are laudable in trying to simplify explanations of various PV types, but I just kinda think ya got a little misinformation there, despite your credible background.

 

My head hurts......

Mongo insert battery, Mongo push button...

 

[MENTION=6803]VapingTurtle[/MENTION], thank you for pointing out the error in my post, but did you really have to be so smug in the way you tried to discredit me?

If this is the example of fellowship and family that I've heard about here, perhaps I've just written my last post...

 

thing i absolutely hate about Vw is,you set it to say 8watts,it then changes the voltage to a suitable setting,you change the atty\whatever an it resets the volts to suitable setting so you get the same temp out of the coil.

with VV i can change the watts within the amp limit of the batt\switch and turn up or down the temp of the vape

 

:cryinghysterically2:cryinghysterically2:cryinghysterically2 im a little bit more complicated then that,but not much

 

Can we add Duty Cycle as it pertains to PWM into this now. The Device Exodus so hates has a 120hz duty Cycle vs almost all other chips 33hz cycle (only Provari, DNA, Nivel and eVic chips use the higher duty cycle).

I ask of [MENTION=6803]VapingTurtle[/MENTION] [MENTION=10409]Keith[/MENTION] to explain it like I am five if the Duty Cycle makes a huge difference or not when it comes to PWM.

 

whats that ??????

 

Well, at the risk of being called a fag and then pushed down a flight of stairs..... :confused2:

Well little runty (you're 5 in this example right?), duty cycle sounds really complex and scary, but it's soooooo simple anyone can remember it!

The higher the frequency the more on/off's you can fit into a cycle.

What does that equate to? The higher the frequency you're working with, the more granularity you have PER SECOND. [MENTION=9465]runtpacket[/MENTION], it doesn't make a farts bit of difference to the actual perceived performance of the device.

The vaping community is full of people who don't know what they're talking about.
And I know it's because electronics are not an easy subject to understand...

My whole purpose in joining a community like this is for fellowship and to try and to maybe try and fill that gap, even if it's only a little bit. Information like this shouldn't be a closely guarded secret that only an elite few can fully appreciate. Yet at the same time, there are some people who "don't know, don't care" and will pass along stupid advice to people without concern for the consequences...

If I wanted to be pat on the back and told how smart I was, I'd have to look no further than my daughter. She still loved me even when I told her that "eatin' boogers is bad for you, because if you swallow them, a new nose will grow in your stomach for them to go back into..." Her response was, "what happens if you sneeze then?" My answer was, "exactly!"

She doesn't remember me tellin' her that, but it still makes me giggle...

 

In simplest forms "Duty cycle is the ratio of "on time" to "off time" during one period." I would refer someone with a true electronics background explain, and maybe chime in on why higher is considered better and does it matter to vaping.

 

1st Thank you very much.

So the only real difference is in the annoying sound you get from slower modulating devices? It may very well be placebo effect, but I swear I can tell a difference in the taste of the vape on the two devices.

 

LOL...
You're welcome...

That "sizzle" noise shouldn't be any faster/slower, unless they're using some weird cycles. Instead of say 10%, 25%, 33%, 50%, etc, maybe they're using stupid numbers like 6%, 14%, 28%, 46%??? Then I could see a diff, but all things being equal, there shouldn't be any diff for 50%, regardless of the frequency being used. Unless they're using an adjustable frequency/adjustable duty cycle.... Then all bets are out the window!

Placebo? Maybe. I don't own one of the offending 120Hz devices, so I'll have to pay closer attention next time I go into the shop...

 

It made me chuckle, too.

Keith, I apologize for being an asshat. I had an asshat day and jumped down more than one target today. Sorry.

The good news is there are very few asshats on this forum, so you're unlikely to run into a whole lot of them.



Now go teach your daughter to say "asshat".

 

Awww, c'mon man... I just apologized... now this... :hmm:

Of course they're using an adjustable duty cycle (not a varying frequency). That is how the apparent output voltage is varied in PWM. VV.

 

Could just be that the sound annoys the piss out of me. The Vamo and other devices of that class of chip just seems to rattle my inner skull when vaping. Then again I can't walk thru most malls or stores with out the sound of the lighting driving me insane. This reminds me to search for a forum to learn why certain noise frequencies bother me and not others.

Edit: I'm not alone in the complaints of sound PBSURDO (sp?) calls it the Rattle Snake sound.

 

Really i don't care about all this mumbo jumbo you guys are spouting ,i quit smoking on an ego batt and that cheap VV box mod from madvapes..

i know what i like,something with constant pwoer output,,provari,ego and mec mods fit that bill perfect

sidenote,,i hated the lavatube's PWM

 

I donno... it's way beyond my very tiny sphere of knowledge... but I'll bet the frequency (which has no relationship to the duty cycle) has an effect on the atty. I'd also guess that a well-filtered PWM circuit (like the ProV) or a linear regulator (like IPro/BuzzPro) differs in its effect at the coil from an unfiltered output (like the Chi VV/VW mods).

 

I bolded the only things that matters there, Ex!

But, did you know (not that you care) that the ego and the prov use PWM, just like the LT that you don't like?